I absolutely love this. I love how you are identifying those moments where your body recognizes it isn’t okay and you digest and pick apart exactly why that is. I appreciate your level of detail when you analyze how you are feeling.
I also greatly detest all these cruel people in your life. Sending hugs ❤️
Back in the earlier days of my current relationship, my BF would sometimes speak to me in a not-so-friendly tone (the way his father talks to his step mother and thus the way his dad talked to him). I had enough and let him know he does not get to talk to me the way his dad does to his step-mom. No sir. And once I said that and he realized he started acting like his dad (something he never wanted) and something clicked and that never happened again.
Thanks Taliya. It's harder to pay attention to your body than you'd think. Sometimes I'll be driving home, listening to a podcast and thinking I'm fine and then I realize my shoulders are up around my ears and my entire body is clenching. You have to constantly check in with yourself by really experiencing your body and asking yourself questions before you can start to make connections.
The people in my life aren't deliberately cruel, they're also hurting and have developed dysfunctional coping mechanisms, you know?
Thanks so much for reading and always commenting. I'm so happy to still be connected this way!
Monica, this reasonated on many levels. I have a memory of being at my fresher week, at a club, a timid Belfast girl suddenly thrust into London - and my university accommodation wasn’t yet ready so I was stuck at some awful hotel they through us all in, in a scary part of the city. Anyway, at this club, a guy at my uni took a liking to me - he was older 24 or 25 to my 18. He followed me around most of the evening and I found him repulsive. I politely excused myself, moved when he danced where I was dancing and generally got in my face - aggressively so. When I finally walked away - again - he followed and spat at me that I was a fucking bitch. He was drunk by now, terrifying. I fretted and quickly asked a friend to leave. My night ruined because some creep wouldn’t take no for an answer - no to a drink, to dancing, to talking… Anyway a week later our halls of residence were complete and I moved into a 24 storey building opposite Madame Tussauds in Baker Street. I was floor 4 alongside 5 other women and 6 guys. Imagine my utter fear when out he walked. I was to live with him! I shook with fear. He laughed about it and thankfully only attempted friendship but I lay in my bed that night consumed with fear. I was to share bathrooms, a kitchen and living area with him. But only for 6 weeks. By halloween he had threatened to beat up the warden and was duly kicked out. Relief flooded me. I’ve definitely experienced male rage - this post is closer to home than I can say - but at a college PD group the other week, (where all is trainee counsellors discuss how we feel about each other) one very temperamental woman massively shouted and lashed out at a peer. I froze and only a week later did I register where my fear came from: my alcoholic mother. A life time spent walking on eggshells around her. She is 23 years sober now but when a woman rages - which is undoubtedly a much less frequent occurrence- I am triggered. The very action sends me back to being a terrified teen, trapped, lost, willing to do anything to keep the peace. Anger is simply the quickest emotion to harness - most likely anger comes from fear. Or shame. One final thing I wanted to note, which in all truth I debated writing - but I know you appreciate honesty and debate - in Depp’s case, I don’t for one second condone his outbursts - slamming cupboards reacting angrily - I think he was/is an addict and his reactions from what I’ve seen are almost always under the influence. That isn’t an excuse I add. His addict behaviour is at odds with his passive, mild mannered personality when sober. I am a feminist - in the form that feminism means to me. It will be different for us all. But I also see feminine toxicity - and I guess as someone who experienced this as a child I’m alert to it. Does that mean that we automatically have to believe every woman every time? God I feel like a traitor to my sex even writing that. Because we have fought so long and hard to be believed. To be heard. To even have a voice! I’m not saying we don’t show empathy, compassion and support - and yes, of course a million times over - this is the truth and we should endeavour to prove this fact. That’s where I guess I want to trust all women instead. Trust and verify. As I would anyone asking belief of anything. In fact I worry - and will fret later no doubt that I even said this - so have attached an article that explains in a way that I’m struggling to articulate. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/28/opinion/metoo-sexual-harassment-believe-women.amp.html PS Sorry to have gone off topic slightly!
Hi there! So glad you read. Thank you for your comment. That male entitlement you mention in the first bit of your comment... The way men lash out at women who politely turn them down. It's exactly that eggshell walking women constantly must do to navigate men's anger at home and public spaces like bars and school and work.
And yes, women lose their shit as well but I find female rage in the general population far less prevalent and entitled than the male anger I'm talking about. And when women are angry they're pretty immediately cast as "crazy" while male anger is often accepted and classified as aggressive (a positive trait for men/negative for women) or masculine. I'm sorry you experienced an alcoholic parent, that's got to be one of the toughest things.
As far as Johnny Depp... That whole thing is sad and terrible and I don't think either one is more at fault than the other. He most certainly doesn't seem to have hit Amber while she readily admits to hitting him but they're both dysfunctional which was often exacerbated by alcohol abuse. Johnny seems to romanticize his anger or at least downplay it with a kind of wry awareness e.g. "This is just the way it is, I'm brooding, depressed and fucked up and you know you like it.") so many artists I've known tend to adopt and even feel bizarrely proud about, and yeah, that women seem to find sexy, at least at the outset of a relationship.
That said, I guess for me, the drinking is part of the problem, not something to mention as a kind of mitigating circumstance although I'm open to being wrong. Like many men I know, including my brother, Johnny seems to use alcohol as an excuse for bad behavior. He knows what it does so when sober and raging he deliberately pours another glass to raise shit to another level. Do I think he's a saint when sober? Not likely. You probably still have to monitor his moods and placate temper tantrums but I also do know men who were violent alcoholics that were totally mild when sober so who's to say? I still like him, a lot. A twenty-something me was a sucker for this kind of guy but a forty-something me will never go that route again. I know better and hopefully Amber knows better now too. But yeah, I still like Johnny as far as I can make an opinion as a trial watcher but I also reserve the opinion that he's totally fucking terrible and performing for the cameras at trial. I like him probably more than Amber, whose antics I can actually relate to: Following someone around in an effort to continue arguing. "Don't you fucking walk away from me when I'm talking to you!" and later spinning that as my attempt to work things out. Yes. Women, including me, can be awful too.
I wondered if someone would "not all men" this article. Your comment is a sort of opposite of that i.e. "women get angry too" so I wanted to make clear that I totally understand that and what you're saying. This is just a general observation of the hoops most women jump through to navigate men's moods. Women's moods are policed so much more heavily while men are almost given a "boys will be boys" pass to behave badly? Am I making any kind of sense here? Totally open to different viewpoints on everything as well.
"Anger from rejected men is such a regular part of women’s lives that many of us have strategies to preempt any nastiness: We invent boyfriends, wear fake engagement rings or give out fake phone numbers. We smile and act flattered, are polite when we don’t want to be, and leave relationships saying that it’s all our fault—anything to prevent a potential swell of rage...Because we know that rejected men are dangerous men. Maybe he’ll release revenge porn after a break-up, or engage in workplace retaliation after denying unwanted advances. Or maybe the worst will happen."
I had a boss (who was an angry out of control drunk that would not leave me alone after he was lit) who got off on making the women in his team cry and would literally bang a gong when he was successful. He could never make me cry. I haven't worked for him for over 16 years and I daily scan the paper hoping to see a sexual harassment suit against that company that I could attest to, or an obituary. I'd greet either with enthusiasm.
I'm over unexceptional men and their entitlement. Trump brought those mucksuckers back to the surface like a massive school of Asian carp. I try not to seethe with rage over it... but it's hard. I've socked many dudes in the face and it doesn't do anything but give me the momentary high of adrenaline and self satisfaction when I cackle "you got hit by a girl" at them, to lead into shame and powerlessness. I fell for it again.
"I'm over unexceptional men and their entitlement. Trump brought those mucksuckers back to the surface like a massive school of Asian carp." <<<-----DYING. Best sentences.
Unexceptional men and their entitlement. God, yes. And that's just it, right? The entitlement. I'M ANGRY. SEE ME BE ANGRY. It would be so fucking boring if it wasn't so terrifying.
You make total sense! I agree, that we as women are constantly excusing or passifying male anger and it is exhausting. Someone very close to me is in counselling for their blind male rage - borne out of a childhood raised as 'this is what masculinity is.' Men are usually more physically dominant than women so we fear physical violence in a way that I think most men don't (with women). I also agree - the whole 'tortured artist' thing is such bullshit - you don't need to be hammered/stoned out of your brain and wracked with melancholy to be interesting... Oh my god if I had a dollar for every man I wanted to 'fix' - or how many I allowed to treat me with disrespect because I knew how 'difficult' it was for them to love me/be kind to me. What I basically said was 'I am not worth being treated with respect.' I have also been awful in rows - I've peed in my husband's shoe I was so enraged. Thrown a used tampon at him. I mean - not pleasant things... In the case of Depp - he held come parties at a bar my husband ran years ago (pre-Amber) and he was the most gentle, generous, kind person - and my husband's bar had every A lister in there and you can tell a lot about a person how they treat waiting staff... So I guess my view on him was always a bit coloured. That said, I agree that the persona he has cultivated shouldn't excuse his behaviour - and their toxic relationship makes neither look good. I think my issue with Amber, is because I counsel rape survivors - and come from a stance there of believing everyone who uses the service. I see JUST how hard it is to bring a conviction - I see just how hard it is for women to believed - and so I have - how to put this correctly.... I just really struggle when I think someone is using a platform or piggy backing on a movement, for their own gains - rather than because they truly are a victim/survivor. As I write this I'm wondering why I believe him more than her... But agree completely that neither look stable! It's just a really interesting discussion. Love what you write Monica - love all the self-reflection and the questioning of what we accept. Being Irish I also come from a place that very much favours the man - the idea women should 'serve.' As a child I served dinner and cleared plates for the men in the family - who did fuck all. Now I am married to someone who does all the cooking and we are equal in every way. Anyway, thanks for such a great thought provoking post. Loved it.
So, so glad you're here sharing your thoughts. Wish I could come to your husband's old bar and have a night with you! And fuck yes for you sharing the bad stuff you've done! I have been physically violent with men who never struck me. I've also been hit by a man. So I understand the tightrope you're walking when you're trying to engage in the very nuanced convo of women as legitimate victims and women who exploit a movement.
I guess the thing that keeps me from taking a solid side in the Johnny/Amber scenario even though based on most of the recordings, she's not coming off so well, is that I know men who present themselves as intellectual, witty, charming individuals who can be monstrous behind the scenes. Men who would charm your socks off at a party or who portray themselves in such a way on social media but whose private behavior would terrify you.
There is nothing sadder than someone excusing their inability to treat others with respect by claiming it's part of their artistic identity. If your art, writing, music, WHATEVER can only be achieved by drowning others in the wake of your emotional turmoil, you need to get your poop in a group and grow up. Learn how to human or your art is trash. Bukowski sucked.
It is 2:30am and I just stumbled across your newsletter. I’m so glad you’re still writing! I was an early reader of your blog (2006ish) and identified so hard with your experience of growing up poor and Mormon and the subsequent ways that fucks with your head and shapes your identity and perspective, and I’ve always admired your passion and introspection. I was also reading Heather’s blog at the time, along with a couple other ex-Mormon blogs—which have since withered and disappeared along with every other piece of real, earnest, engaging, messy writing on the internet 😩—and reading others’ experiences really helped me feel not so alone and crazy after I left the church. So thank you for the part you unknowingly played in that. 💗
I’m beginning to find that type of writing and community on Substack though. I’m tentatively hopeful about the future of this platform. Happy to be a reader again!
I absolutely love this. I love how you are identifying those moments where your body recognizes it isn’t okay and you digest and pick apart exactly why that is. I appreciate your level of detail when you analyze how you are feeling.
I also greatly detest all these cruel people in your life. Sending hugs ❤️
Back in the earlier days of my current relationship, my BF would sometimes speak to me in a not-so-friendly tone (the way his father talks to his step mother and thus the way his dad talked to him). I had enough and let him know he does not get to talk to me the way his dad does to his step-mom. No sir. And once I said that and he realized he started acting like his dad (something he never wanted) and something clicked and that never happened again.
Thanks Taliya. It's harder to pay attention to your body than you'd think. Sometimes I'll be driving home, listening to a podcast and thinking I'm fine and then I realize my shoulders are up around my ears and my entire body is clenching. You have to constantly check in with yourself by really experiencing your body and asking yourself questions before you can start to make connections.
The people in my life aren't deliberately cruel, they're also hurting and have developed dysfunctional coping mechanisms, you know?
Thanks so much for reading and always commenting. I'm so happy to still be connected this way!
Monica, this reasonated on many levels. I have a memory of being at my fresher week, at a club, a timid Belfast girl suddenly thrust into London - and my university accommodation wasn’t yet ready so I was stuck at some awful hotel they through us all in, in a scary part of the city. Anyway, at this club, a guy at my uni took a liking to me - he was older 24 or 25 to my 18. He followed me around most of the evening and I found him repulsive. I politely excused myself, moved when he danced where I was dancing and generally got in my face - aggressively so. When I finally walked away - again - he followed and spat at me that I was a fucking bitch. He was drunk by now, terrifying. I fretted and quickly asked a friend to leave. My night ruined because some creep wouldn’t take no for an answer - no to a drink, to dancing, to talking… Anyway a week later our halls of residence were complete and I moved into a 24 storey building opposite Madame Tussauds in Baker Street. I was floor 4 alongside 5 other women and 6 guys. Imagine my utter fear when out he walked. I was to live with him! I shook with fear. He laughed about it and thankfully only attempted friendship but I lay in my bed that night consumed with fear. I was to share bathrooms, a kitchen and living area with him. But only for 6 weeks. By halloween he had threatened to beat up the warden and was duly kicked out. Relief flooded me. I’ve definitely experienced male rage - this post is closer to home than I can say - but at a college PD group the other week, (where all is trainee counsellors discuss how we feel about each other) one very temperamental woman massively shouted and lashed out at a peer. I froze and only a week later did I register where my fear came from: my alcoholic mother. A life time spent walking on eggshells around her. She is 23 years sober now but when a woman rages - which is undoubtedly a much less frequent occurrence- I am triggered. The very action sends me back to being a terrified teen, trapped, lost, willing to do anything to keep the peace. Anger is simply the quickest emotion to harness - most likely anger comes from fear. Or shame. One final thing I wanted to note, which in all truth I debated writing - but I know you appreciate honesty and debate - in Depp’s case, I don’t for one second condone his outbursts - slamming cupboards reacting angrily - I think he was/is an addict and his reactions from what I’ve seen are almost always under the influence. That isn’t an excuse I add. His addict behaviour is at odds with his passive, mild mannered personality when sober. I am a feminist - in the form that feminism means to me. It will be different for us all. But I also see feminine toxicity - and I guess as someone who experienced this as a child I’m alert to it. Does that mean that we automatically have to believe every woman every time? God I feel like a traitor to my sex even writing that. Because we have fought so long and hard to be believed. To be heard. To even have a voice! I’m not saying we don’t show empathy, compassion and support - and yes, of course a million times over - this is the truth and we should endeavour to prove this fact. That’s where I guess I want to trust all women instead. Trust and verify. As I would anyone asking belief of anything. In fact I worry - and will fret later no doubt that I even said this - so have attached an article that explains in a way that I’m struggling to articulate. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/28/opinion/metoo-sexual-harassment-believe-women.amp.html PS Sorry to have gone off topic slightly!
Hi there! So glad you read. Thank you for your comment. That male entitlement you mention in the first bit of your comment... The way men lash out at women who politely turn them down. It's exactly that eggshell walking women constantly must do to navigate men's anger at home and public spaces like bars and school and work.
And yes, women lose their shit as well but I find female rage in the general population far less prevalent and entitled than the male anger I'm talking about. And when women are angry they're pretty immediately cast as "crazy" while male anger is often accepted and classified as aggressive (a positive trait for men/negative for women) or masculine. I'm sorry you experienced an alcoholic parent, that's got to be one of the toughest things.
As far as Johnny Depp... That whole thing is sad and terrible and I don't think either one is more at fault than the other. He most certainly doesn't seem to have hit Amber while she readily admits to hitting him but they're both dysfunctional which was often exacerbated by alcohol abuse. Johnny seems to romanticize his anger or at least downplay it with a kind of wry awareness e.g. "This is just the way it is, I'm brooding, depressed and fucked up and you know you like it.") so many artists I've known tend to adopt and even feel bizarrely proud about, and yeah, that women seem to find sexy, at least at the outset of a relationship.
That said, I guess for me, the drinking is part of the problem, not something to mention as a kind of mitigating circumstance although I'm open to being wrong. Like many men I know, including my brother, Johnny seems to use alcohol as an excuse for bad behavior. He knows what it does so when sober and raging he deliberately pours another glass to raise shit to another level. Do I think he's a saint when sober? Not likely. You probably still have to monitor his moods and placate temper tantrums but I also do know men who were violent alcoholics that were totally mild when sober so who's to say? I still like him, a lot. A twenty-something me was a sucker for this kind of guy but a forty-something me will never go that route again. I know better and hopefully Amber knows better now too. But yeah, I still like Johnny as far as I can make an opinion as a trial watcher but I also reserve the opinion that he's totally fucking terrible and performing for the cameras at trial. I like him probably more than Amber, whose antics I can actually relate to: Following someone around in an effort to continue arguing. "Don't you fucking walk away from me when I'm talking to you!" and later spinning that as my attempt to work things out. Yes. Women, including me, can be awful too.
I wondered if someone would "not all men" this article. Your comment is a sort of opposite of that i.e. "women get angry too" so I wanted to make clear that I totally understand that and what you're saying. This is just a general observation of the hoops most women jump through to navigate men's moods. Women's moods are policed so much more heavily while men are almost given a "boys will be boys" pass to behave badly? Am I making any kind of sense here? Totally open to different viewpoints on everything as well.
Your university story reminded me of this excellent Jessica Valenti piece:
https://jessica.substack.com/p/hell-hath-no-fury-like-a-man-rejected?s=r
"Anger from rejected men is such a regular part of women’s lives that many of us have strategies to preempt any nastiness: We invent boyfriends, wear fake engagement rings or give out fake phone numbers. We smile and act flattered, are polite when we don’t want to be, and leave relationships saying that it’s all our fault—anything to prevent a potential swell of rage...Because we know that rejected men are dangerous men. Maybe he’ll release revenge porn after a break-up, or engage in workplace retaliation after denying unwanted advances. Or maybe the worst will happen."
I had a boss (who was an angry out of control drunk that would not leave me alone after he was lit) who got off on making the women in his team cry and would literally bang a gong when he was successful. He could never make me cry. I haven't worked for him for over 16 years and I daily scan the paper hoping to see a sexual harassment suit against that company that I could attest to, or an obituary. I'd greet either with enthusiasm.
I'm over unexceptional men and their entitlement. Trump brought those mucksuckers back to the surface like a massive school of Asian carp. I try not to seethe with rage over it... but it's hard. I've socked many dudes in the face and it doesn't do anything but give me the momentary high of adrenaline and self satisfaction when I cackle "you got hit by a girl" at them, to lead into shame and powerlessness. I fell for it again.
So yep. Walk away. Always walk away.
"I'm over unexceptional men and their entitlement. Trump brought those mucksuckers back to the surface like a massive school of Asian carp." <<<-----DYING. Best sentences.
Unexceptional men and their entitlement. God, yes. And that's just it, right? The entitlement. I'M ANGRY. SEE ME BE ANGRY. It would be so fucking boring if it wasn't so terrifying.
You make total sense! I agree, that we as women are constantly excusing or passifying male anger and it is exhausting. Someone very close to me is in counselling for their blind male rage - borne out of a childhood raised as 'this is what masculinity is.' Men are usually more physically dominant than women so we fear physical violence in a way that I think most men don't (with women). I also agree - the whole 'tortured artist' thing is such bullshit - you don't need to be hammered/stoned out of your brain and wracked with melancholy to be interesting... Oh my god if I had a dollar for every man I wanted to 'fix' - or how many I allowed to treat me with disrespect because I knew how 'difficult' it was for them to love me/be kind to me. What I basically said was 'I am not worth being treated with respect.' I have also been awful in rows - I've peed in my husband's shoe I was so enraged. Thrown a used tampon at him. I mean - not pleasant things... In the case of Depp - he held come parties at a bar my husband ran years ago (pre-Amber) and he was the most gentle, generous, kind person - and my husband's bar had every A lister in there and you can tell a lot about a person how they treat waiting staff... So I guess my view on him was always a bit coloured. That said, I agree that the persona he has cultivated shouldn't excuse his behaviour - and their toxic relationship makes neither look good. I think my issue with Amber, is because I counsel rape survivors - and come from a stance there of believing everyone who uses the service. I see JUST how hard it is to bring a conviction - I see just how hard it is for women to believed - and so I have - how to put this correctly.... I just really struggle when I think someone is using a platform or piggy backing on a movement, for their own gains - rather than because they truly are a victim/survivor. As I write this I'm wondering why I believe him more than her... But agree completely that neither look stable! It's just a really interesting discussion. Love what you write Monica - love all the self-reflection and the questioning of what we accept. Being Irish I also come from a place that very much favours the man - the idea women should 'serve.' As a child I served dinner and cleared plates for the men in the family - who did fuck all. Now I am married to someone who does all the cooking and we are equal in every way. Anyway, thanks for such a great thought provoking post. Loved it.
So, so glad you're here sharing your thoughts. Wish I could come to your husband's old bar and have a night with you! And fuck yes for you sharing the bad stuff you've done! I have been physically violent with men who never struck me. I've also been hit by a man. So I understand the tightrope you're walking when you're trying to engage in the very nuanced convo of women as legitimate victims and women who exploit a movement.
I guess the thing that keeps me from taking a solid side in the Johnny/Amber scenario even though based on most of the recordings, she's not coming off so well, is that I know men who present themselves as intellectual, witty, charming individuals who can be monstrous behind the scenes. Men who would charm your socks off at a party or who portray themselves in such a way on social media but whose private behavior would terrify you.
There is nothing sadder than someone excusing their inability to treat others with respect by claiming it's part of their artistic identity. If your art, writing, music, WHATEVER can only be achieved by drowning others in the wake of your emotional turmoil, you need to get your poop in a group and grow up. Learn how to human or your art is trash. Bukowski sucked.
It is 2:30am and I just stumbled across your newsletter. I’m so glad you’re still writing! I was an early reader of your blog (2006ish) and identified so hard with your experience of growing up poor and Mormon and the subsequent ways that fucks with your head and shapes your identity and perspective, and I’ve always admired your passion and introspection. I was also reading Heather’s blog at the time, along with a couple other ex-Mormon blogs—which have since withered and disappeared along with every other piece of real, earnest, engaging, messy writing on the internet 😩—and reading others’ experiences really helped me feel not so alone and crazy after I left the church. So thank you for the part you unknowingly played in that. 💗
I’m beginning to find that type of writing and community on Substack though. I’m tentatively hopeful about the future of this platform. Happy to be a reader again!